[[snapshot]]: 2021-05-19 19:06:49

Affected files:

.obsidian/workspace
"distributed press 2021-05-19.md"

.obsidian/workspace

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distributed press 2021-05-19.md

@@ -0,0 +1,175 @@
+- an instance of [[distributed press]]
+	- [[2021 05 19]]
+- [[benedict lau]]
+	- [[hypha]]
+		- interested in building a tool that publishes through many different protocols
+			- sharing social messages seamlessly
+		- [[flancian]]
+		- [[paul frazee]]
+			- [[secure scuttlebut]]
+			- [[beaker browser]]
+			- [[hypercore protocol]]
+				- [[ctzn]]
+		- [[guo]]
+			- matters.news
+			- serving mostly chinese communities
+			- looking at [[ipfs]], [[hypercore]]
+			- working on a protocol similar to [[unwalled garden]], but also thinking of integrating [[rss]]
+				- also interested on [[webmentions]]
+		- [[vera]]
+			- working on [[agora]]
+			- background in distributed social systems, worked on (sp?) status, before mastodon
+		- [[fauno]]
+			- (mic incoming) :)
+- [[paul frazee]] 
+	- [[distributed vs federated]]
+		- a bit stuck here currently
+		- the way to conceptualize
+		- [[federated]] ~ [[mastodon]]
+		- [[distributed]] ~ [[ipfs]] mesh
+			- completely open system, if you're in the mesh you're in
+			- technologically, user experience wise is great
+			- trying to figure out how to deal with the [[cost]] structure
+			- in the case of social media, you're making your own twitter
+			- how do you get economies of scale worked in there?
+				- [[filecoin]]?
+				- [[gateway model]]
+					- ipfs gateway: there is more than one of them
+				- if your mesh contains social data, you get a social network
+			- [[ben]] what are the costs involved?
+				- [[paul]] unsure but they all seem associated to a side business so far
+			- advantages
+				- ?
+				- serverless clients are possible
+			- [[ben]]
+				- less well maintained gateways become issues for user experience
+				- censorship
+				- [[guo]] yes, gateways become a centralized point
+					- gateway should be a backup after serverless client
+				- [[paul frazee]]
+					- spent 6-8 months working on a social network back in [[beaker]]
+					- some stuff that stops you:
+						- links that are a new protocol are an issue
+						- ux killer on stuff like twitter
+					- didn't have a push messaging system back then
+						- didn't want to have to deal with spam
+						- ux killer: no notifications unless mutual follow
+							- [[aggregator]]
+					- try to bring in positive properties of the system
+				- [[flancian]]
+					- [[metcalfe's law]]
+				- [[ben]]
+					- [[web mentions]]
+- [[guo]]
+	- content feed + social graph as a distributed publication and social network
+	- people can store their content feed and social graph anywhere
+	- user control their data
+	- search
+	- separating storage and aggregation
+- [[paul frazee]]
+	- database vs datamesh
+	- federation puts application logic in the wire protocol
+- [[flancian]]
+	- [[datamesh]] should probably be treated as a commons
+- [[guo]]
+	- we could avoid many governance issues at the [[database]] layer
+	- [[ben]] this sounds like the [[scuttlebutt]] and [[hypercore model]]?
+		- [[paul]] when last involved there was no global entrypoint, it was [[gossip protocol]]
+		- [[pubs]] were [[store and forward relays]]
+		- information would flow 100% on the basis of the social graph
+		- led to complexities; people could give you keys and still be unreachable
+- [[flancian]]
+	- [[paul]]
+		- how do you end up in a situation in which governance is required? 
+	- [[guo]]
+		- datamesh seems like it does not require governance, but the aggregator does
+		- (interlay vs overlay?)
+ 		- [[ben]] aether (sp?) 
+			- distributed reddit
+			- distributed moderation
+			- liquid democracy-like
+		- [[ben]]
+			- we need to agree on:
+				- schemas
+				- distribution protocol
+				- aggregator censorship
+			- what happens when your computer ends up hosting hate speech?
+				- you can stop the flow in the mesh and that applies negative evolutionary pressure
+			- [[paul]] aether does [[default allow]], I do [[default deny]]
+		- [[flancian]]
+			- minimum exchange format
+		- [[guo]]
+			- choice of markdown vs html
+			- chose html over markdown, it supports arbitrary media
+			- [[encryption]]
+				- exclusive content
+				- hard to define protocol-level encryption standard
+				- bake the encryption message into the html
+					- [[mdx]]
+		- [[ben]] decided to first publish/store things as html
+			- most people want to have something ready-to-publish
+			- but a consumption pattern arises: you copy/paste whole articles
+			- on the dweb there is an opportunity for this as we can publish different formats of the same concept
+			- get content in more than one format
+		- [[paul]]
+			- [[schemas]] in general
+			- I would describe what you were discussing as "rich text format"
+			- orthogonal to schemas
+				- fighting with schemas since [[secure scuttlebutt]]
+				- pissed off [[rdf]] people
+		    	- reached https://ctzn.network/comment
+				- scuttlebutt: did not impose *any* schema obligations; disastrous approach
+				- [[unwalled gardens]]: enforced types
+				- [[ctzn network]]: urls identifying the schemas with a machine readable format
+					- rejects messages that don't comply with the schema
+					- believe in this approach
+						- if you don't, you end up in the tragedy of the commons or failure in collective action (scuttlebutt)
+							- compatibility with the schema dictates everything you can do
+							- you have a feature, you add a dependency
+							- had a post type
+								- would be nice if you have a topic
+								- if you are not subscribed to [[cats]], you won't see it
+								- but you can't rely on it as many clients won't support it
+								- you might end up spamming old clients
+								- [[fatal ambiguity]]
+								- once you see this, schemas start seeming risky to change
+								- you can do extension points, but would suggest against
+							- current approach:
+								- well defined schemas
+								- people can determine their own schemas
+								- control the [[ctzn network]] schemas
+								- can have extension tables
+							- [[ben]]
+								- feel like [[scuttlebutt]] has a schema, otherwise you couldn't have more than one client
+								- what it lacked, it seems, is versioning?
+								- how do you manage upgrades?
+							 - [[paul]] the problem is multiple clients controlled by different devs
+							 - [[flancian]] what do you really need for features -- usually you'd want to have the minimum minimum schema requirements?
+							 - [[paul frazee]]
+							 	- [[web mentions]]: exploring now
+								- [[unwalled garden]]
+									- difference between it and [[ctzn network]]
+								- suppose you want to have the ability to have mentions in your comments
+									- you have to keep parsing for entities if you store text or text-like
+									- using [[hyperbee]] in [[ctzn]]
+										- it can list directories or keyspaces in order
+									    - more like a database technology
+								- for distributed press/unwalled garden: file oriented approach can work over http
+						- [[guo]] in the comments problem, who owns the post data?
+							- the post it's on could 'own' it
+							- the [[comment]] writer could own it
+								- this seems safer?
+						- [[fauno]]
+							- if we allow for comments, who is responsible for keeping them? hateful comments/censorship/etc
+							- [[webmentions]]: fascist websites pinging you
+							- people don't have time to moderate
+						- [[ben]] same thing is seen in wordpress
+						- [[fauno]] web mentions and how to keep bad parties out
+						- [[flancian]] how will moderation work in [[ctzn network]]? 
+							- [[paul]] would like to have a great answer :)
+								- [[reputation systems]]
+									- no one size fits all
+									- this lets you scale the work
+									- reputational graph approach
+								- [[subjective moderation]]
+									- elected moderators