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[[snapshot]]: 2021-05-19 19:06:49

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.obsidian/workspace
"distributed press 2021-05-19.md"
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Flancian
2021-05-19 19:06:49 +02:00
parent a9a3c7fb00
commit a13cfb1dfd
2 changed files with 187 additions and 12 deletions
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.obsidian/workspace
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distributed press 2021-05-19.md
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- an instance of [[distributed press]]
- [[2021 05 19]]
- [[benedict lau]]
- [[hypha]]
- interested in building a tool that publishes through many different protocols
- sharing social messages seamlessly
- [[flancian]]
- [[paul frazee]]
- [[secure scuttlebut]]
- [[beaker browser]]
- [[hypercore protocol]]
- [[ctzn]]
- [[guo]]
- matters.news
- serving mostly chinese communities
- looking at [[ipfs]], [[hypercore]]
- working on a protocol similar to [[unwalled garden]], but also thinking of integrating [[rss]]
- also interested on [[webmentions]]
- [[vera]]
- working on [[agora]]
- background in distributed social systems, worked on (sp?) status, before mastodon
- [[fauno]]
- (mic incoming) :)
- [[paul frazee]]
- [[distributed vs federated]]
- a bit stuck here currently
- the way to conceptualize
- [[federated]] ~ [[mastodon]]
- [[distributed]] ~ [[ipfs]] mesh
- completely open system, if you're in the mesh you're in
- technologically, user experience wise is great
- trying to figure out how to deal with the [[cost]] structure
- in the case of social media, you're making your own twitter
- how do you get economies of scale worked in there?
- [[filecoin]]?
- [[gateway model]]
- ipfs gateway: there is more than one of them
- if your mesh contains social data, you get a social network
- [[ben]] what are the costs involved?
- [[paul]] unsure but they all seem associated to a side business so far
- advantages
- ?
- serverless clients are possible
- [[ben]]
- less well maintained gateways become issues for user experience
- censorship
- [[guo]] yes, gateways become a centralized point
- gateway should be a backup after serverless client
- [[paul frazee]]
- spent 6-8 months working on a social network back in [[beaker]]
- some stuff that stops you:
- links that are a new protocol are an issue
- ux killer on stuff like twitter
- didn't have a push messaging system back then
- didn't want to have to deal with spam
- ux killer: no notifications unless mutual follow
- [[aggregator]]
- try to bring in positive properties of the system
- [[flancian]]
- [[metcalfe's law]]
- [[ben]]
- [[web mentions]]
- [[guo]]
- content feed + social graph as a distributed publication and social network
- people can store their content feed and social graph anywhere
- user control their data
- search
- separating storage and aggregation
- [[paul frazee]]
- database vs datamesh
- federation puts application logic in the wire protocol
- [[flancian]]
- [[datamesh]] should probably be treated as a commons
- [[guo]]
- we could avoid many governance issues at the [[database]] layer
- [[ben]] this sounds like the [[scuttlebutt]] and [[hypercore model]]?
- [[paul]] when last involved there was no global entrypoint, it was [[gossip protocol]]
- [[pubs]] were [[store and forward relays]]
- information would flow 100% on the basis of the social graph
- led to complexities; people could give you keys and still be unreachable
- [[flancian]]
- [[paul]]
- how do you end up in a situation in which governance is required?
- [[guo]]
- datamesh seems like it does not require governance, but the aggregator does
- (interlay vs overlay?)
- [[ben]] aether (sp?)
- distributed reddit
- distributed moderation
- liquid democracy-like
- [[ben]]
- we need to agree on:
- schemas
- distribution protocol
- aggregator censorship
- what happens when your computer ends up hosting hate speech?
- you can stop the flow in the mesh and that applies negative evolutionary pressure
- [[paul]] aether does [[default allow]], I do [[default deny]]
- [[flancian]]
- minimum exchange format
- [[guo]]
- choice of markdown vs html
- chose html over markdown, it supports arbitrary media
- [[encryption]]
- exclusive content
- hard to define protocol-level encryption standard
- bake the encryption message into the html
- [[mdx]]
- [[ben]] decided to first publish/store things as html
- most people want to have something ready-to-publish
- but a consumption pattern arises: you copy/paste whole articles
- on the dweb there is an opportunity for this as we can publish different formats of the same concept
- get content in more than one format
- [[paul]]
- [[schemas]] in general
- I would describe what you were discussing as "rich text format"
- orthogonal to schemas
- fighting with schemas since [[secure scuttlebutt]]
- pissed off [[rdf]] people
- reached https://ctzn.network/comment
- scuttlebutt: did not impose *any* schema obligations; disastrous approach
- [[unwalled gardens]]: enforced types
- [[ctzn network]]: urls identifying the schemas with a machine readable format
- rejects messages that don't comply with the schema
- believe in this approach
- if you don't, you end up in the tragedy of the commons or failure in collective action (scuttlebutt)
- compatibility with the schema dictates everything you can do
- you have a feature, you add a dependency
- had a post type
- would be nice if you have a topic
- if you are not subscribed to [[cats]], you won't see it
- but you can't rely on it as many clients won't support it
- you might end up spamming old clients
- [[fatal ambiguity]]
- once you see this, schemas start seeming risky to change
- you can do extension points, but would suggest against
- current approach:
- well defined schemas
- people can determine their own schemas
- control the [[ctzn network]] schemas
- can have extension tables
- [[ben]]
- feel like [[scuttlebutt]] has a schema, otherwise you couldn't have more than one client
- what it lacked, it seems, is versioning?
- how do you manage upgrades?
- [[paul]] the problem is multiple clients controlled by different devs
- [[flancian]] what do you really need for features -- usually you'd want to have the minimum minimum schema requirements?
- [[paul frazee]]
- [[web mentions]]: exploring now
- [[unwalled garden]]
- difference between it and [[ctzn network]]
- suppose you want to have the ability to have mentions in your comments
- you have to keep parsing for entities if you store text or text-like
- using [[hyperbee]] in [[ctzn]]
- it can list directories or keyspaces in order
- more like a database technology
- for distributed press/unwalled garden: file oriented approach can work over http
- [[guo]] in the comments problem, who owns the post data?
- the post it's on could 'own' it
- the [[comment]] writer could own it
- this seems safer?
- [[fauno]]
- if we allow for comments, who is responsible for keeping them? hateful comments/censorship/etc
- [[webmentions]]: fascist websites pinging you
- people don't have time to moderate
- [[ben]] same thing is seen in wordpress
- [[fauno]] web mentions and how to keep bad parties out
- [[flancian]] how will moderation work in [[ctzn network]]?
- [[paul]] would like to have a great answer :)
- [[reputation systems]]
- no one size fits all
- this lets you scale the work
- reputational graph approach
- [[subjective moderation]]
- elected moderators