From a13cfb1dfdc237f6aa06f7d72fef22d80f648850 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Flancian <0@flancia.org> Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 19:06:49 +0200 Subject: [PATCH] [[snapshot]]: 2021-05-19 19:06:49 Affected files: .obsidian/workspace "distributed press 2021-05-19.md" --- .obsidian/workspace | 24 ++--- distributed press 2021-05-19.md | 175 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 2 files changed, 187 insertions(+), 12 deletions(-) diff --git a/.obsidian/workspace b/.obsidian/workspace index ad424ae76..1a21c8564 100644 --- a/.obsidian/workspace +++ b/.obsidian/workspace @@ -10,7 +10,7 @@ { "id": "90ec1eb033ec1a7c", "type": "split", - "dimension": 9.358914365933552, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "children": [ { "id": "ae59c49b3be42d7f", @@ -40,7 +40,7 @@ { "id": "8a56ec28d423896d", "type": "leaf", - "dimension": 7.88488535329902, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "state": { "type": "markdown", "state": { @@ -52,7 +52,7 @@ { "id": "c071acc4ccfb8dc9", "type": "leaf", - "dimension": 3.94244267664951, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "state": { "type": "markdown", "state": { @@ -64,7 +64,7 @@ { "id": "4ea066c727e01a43", "type": "leaf", - "dimension": 3.94244267664951, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "state": { "type": "markdown", "state": { @@ -76,7 +76,7 @@ { "id": "275939b25bb9e25b", "type": "leaf", - "dimension": 9.358914365933552, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "state": { "type": "markdown", "state": { @@ -88,7 +88,7 @@ { "id": "4b41bce00c78f0ad", "type": "leaf", - "dimension": 9.358914365933552, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "state": { "type": "markdown", "state": { @@ -100,7 +100,7 @@ { "id": "f7e4518cf66c39b1", "type": "leaf", - "dimension": 9.358914365933552, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "state": { "type": "markdown", "state": { @@ -112,7 +112,7 @@ { "id": "51c9ae2c2de06ac1", "type": "leaf", - "dimension": 9.358914365933552, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "state": { "type": "markdown", "state": { @@ -124,7 +124,7 @@ { "id": "71bcc08f992c1744", "type": "leaf", - "dimension": 9.358914365933552, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "state": { "type": "markdown", "state": { @@ -136,7 +136,7 @@ { "id": "ecc917675c91e32d", "type": "split", - "dimension": 9.358914365933552, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "children": [ { "id": "efc285d04f618479", @@ -166,7 +166,7 @@ { "id": "089feb5db4c29e31", "type": "split", - "dimension": 9.358914365933552, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "children": [ { "id": "d751188de77a3616", @@ -196,7 +196,7 @@ { "id": "17cf41804b8b958d", "type": "split", - "dimension": 9.358914365933552, + "dimension": 8.333333333333332, "children": [ { "id": "0d5997891e905142", diff --git a/distributed press 2021-05-19.md b/distributed press 2021-05-19.md index e69de29bb..a8e4ccf27 100644 --- a/distributed press 2021-05-19.md +++ b/distributed press 2021-05-19.md @@ -0,0 +1,175 @@ +- an instance of [[distributed press]] + - [[2021 05 19]] +- [[benedict lau]] + - [[hypha]] + - interested in building a tool that publishes through many different protocols + - sharing social messages seamlessly + - [[flancian]] + - [[paul frazee]] + - [[secure scuttlebut]] + - [[beaker browser]] + - [[hypercore protocol]] + - [[ctzn]] + - [[guo]] + - matters.news + - serving mostly chinese communities + - looking at [[ipfs]], [[hypercore]] + - working on a protocol similar to [[unwalled garden]], but also thinking of integrating [[rss]] + - also interested on [[webmentions]] + - [[vera]] + - working on [[agora]] + - background in distributed social systems, worked on (sp?) status, before mastodon + - [[fauno]] + - (mic incoming) :) +- [[paul frazee]] + - [[distributed vs federated]] + - a bit stuck here currently + - the way to conceptualize + - [[federated]] ~ [[mastodon]] + - [[distributed]] ~ [[ipfs]] mesh + - completely open system, if you're in the mesh you're in + - technologically, user experience wise is great + - trying to figure out how to deal with the [[cost]] structure + - in the case of social media, you're making your own twitter + - how do you get economies of scale worked in there? + - [[filecoin]]? + - [[gateway model]] + - ipfs gateway: there is more than one of them + - if your mesh contains social data, you get a social network + - [[ben]] what are the costs involved? + - [[paul]] unsure but they all seem associated to a side business so far + - advantages + - ? + - serverless clients are possible + - [[ben]] + - less well maintained gateways become issues for user experience + - censorship + - [[guo]] yes, gateways become a centralized point + - gateway should be a backup after serverless client + - [[paul frazee]] + - spent 6-8 months working on a social network back in [[beaker]] + - some stuff that stops you: + - links that are a new protocol are an issue + - ux killer on stuff like twitter + - didn't have a push messaging system back then + - didn't want to have to deal with spam + - ux killer: no notifications unless mutual follow + - [[aggregator]] + - try to bring in positive properties of the system + - [[flancian]] + - [[metcalfe's law]] + - [[ben]] + - [[web mentions]] +- [[guo]] + - content feed + social graph as a distributed publication and social network + - people can store their content feed and social graph anywhere + - user control their data + - search + - separating storage and aggregation +- [[paul frazee]] + - database vs datamesh + - federation puts application logic in the wire protocol +- [[flancian]] + - [[datamesh]] should probably be treated as a commons +- [[guo]] + - we could avoid many governance issues at the [[database]] layer + - [[ben]] this sounds like the [[scuttlebutt]] and [[hypercore model]]? + - [[paul]] when last involved there was no global entrypoint, it was [[gossip protocol]] + - [[pubs]] were [[store and forward relays]] + - information would flow 100% on the basis of the social graph + - led to complexities; people could give you keys and still be unreachable +- [[flancian]] + - [[paul]] + - how do you end up in a situation in which governance is required? + - [[guo]] + - datamesh seems like it does not require governance, but the aggregator does + - (interlay vs overlay?) + - [[ben]] aether (sp?) + - distributed reddit + - distributed moderation + - liquid democracy-like + - [[ben]] + - we need to agree on: + - schemas + - distribution protocol + - aggregator censorship + - what happens when your computer ends up hosting hate speech? + - you can stop the flow in the mesh and that applies negative evolutionary pressure + - [[paul]] aether does [[default allow]], I do [[default deny]] + - [[flancian]] + - minimum exchange format + - [[guo]] + - choice of markdown vs html + - chose html over markdown, it supports arbitrary media + - [[encryption]] + - exclusive content + - hard to define protocol-level encryption standard + - bake the encryption message into the html + - [[mdx]] + - [[ben]] decided to first publish/store things as html + - most people want to have something ready-to-publish + - but a consumption pattern arises: you copy/paste whole articles + - on the dweb there is an opportunity for this as we can publish different formats of the same concept + - get content in more than one format + - [[paul]] + - [[schemas]] in general + - I would describe what you were discussing as "rich text format" + - orthogonal to schemas + - fighting with schemas since [[secure scuttlebutt]] + - pissed off [[rdf]] people + - reached https://ctzn.network/comment + - scuttlebutt: did not impose *any* schema obligations; disastrous approach + - [[unwalled gardens]]: enforced types + - [[ctzn network]]: urls identifying the schemas with a machine readable format + - rejects messages that don't comply with the schema + - believe in this approach + - if you don't, you end up in the tragedy of the commons or failure in collective action (scuttlebutt) + - compatibility with the schema dictates everything you can do + - you have a feature, you add a dependency + - had a post type + - would be nice if you have a topic + - if you are not subscribed to [[cats]], you won't see it + - but you can't rely on it as many clients won't support it + - you might end up spamming old clients + - [[fatal ambiguity]] + - once you see this, schemas start seeming risky to change + - you can do extension points, but would suggest against + - current approach: + - well defined schemas + - people can determine their own schemas + - control the [[ctzn network]] schemas + - can have extension tables + - [[ben]] + - feel like [[scuttlebutt]] has a schema, otherwise you couldn't have more than one client + - what it lacked, it seems, is versioning? + - how do you manage upgrades? + - [[paul]] the problem is multiple clients controlled by different devs + - [[flancian]] what do you really need for features -- usually you'd want to have the minimum minimum schema requirements? + - [[paul frazee]] + - [[web mentions]]: exploring now + - [[unwalled garden]] + - difference between it and [[ctzn network]] + - suppose you want to have the ability to have mentions in your comments + - you have to keep parsing for entities if you store text or text-like + - using [[hyperbee]] in [[ctzn]] + - it can list directories or keyspaces in order + - more like a database technology + - for distributed press/unwalled garden: file oriented approach can work over http + - [[guo]] in the comments problem, who owns the post data? + - the post it's on could 'own' it + - the [[comment]] writer could own it + - this seems safer? + - [[fauno]] + - if we allow for comments, who is responsible for keeping them? hateful comments/censorship/etc + - [[webmentions]]: fascist websites pinging you + - people don't have time to moderate + - [[ben]] same thing is seen in wordpress + - [[fauno]] web mentions and how to keep bad parties out + - [[flancian]] how will moderation work in [[ctzn network]]? + - [[paul]] would like to have a great answer :) + - [[reputation systems]] + - no one size fits all + - this lets you scale the work + - reputational graph approach + - [[subjective moderation]] + - elected moderators