diff --git a/logseq/bak/social coop tech group.md.2022-05-27T22_44_13.950Z b/logseq/bak/social coop tech group.md.2022-05-27T22_44_13.950Z new file mode 100644 index 000000000..e9933f0a0 --- /dev/null +++ b/logseq/bak/social coop tech group.md.2022-05-27T22_44_13.950Z @@ -0,0 +1,230 @@ +- a [[group]]. + - #pull [[social coop]] + - [[framadate]] https://framadate.org/social-coop-tech-group + - now replaced by built-in [[loomio]] feature + - [[meet]] https://socialcoop.meet.coop/dav-y3e-c21-sgv + - [[minutes]] https://www.loomio.org/d/UwAeiBgE/tech-meeting-minutes + - see also the [[stoa]] below :) + - [[thread]] https://social.coop/web/statuses/108090642475540439 + - #push [[do]] + - DONE help [[derek kozel]] (open chatroom) try to recover his account + - https://discourse.joinmastodon.org/t/is-it-possible-to-restore-a-deleted-user-account/1945 + - ran: `mastodon@564f268b311f:~$ tootctl accounts create dkozel --reattach --force --email=derek@bitstovolts.com` + - to get to a shell in the right container, ran: `docker exec -it docker_web_1 /bin/bash` in [[runko]] + - meet on [[2022-05-20]] 3pm utc + - meet on [[2022-05-27]] 5pm utc + - DONE start proposal to move registrations to [[mastodon]] by moving to [[approval required]], wiki process seems unnecessarily involved at this stage + :LOGBOOK: + CLOCK: [2022-05-15 Sun 16:23:48]--[2022-05-15 Sun 16:23:48] => 00:00:00 + :END: +- [[2022-05-27]] see [[stoa]]. +- [[2022-05-20]] see minutes thread above. +- [[2022-05-13]] + - Attending: + - [[akshay]] + - [[neil]] + - [[noah]] == [[redoak]] + - [[eduardo]] == [[flancian]] + - [[nick]] == [[nick sellen]] + - [[will]] == [[datatitian]] + - round the table catching up :) + - [[neil]] first time in one of the tech group meetings! + - post work on a Friday -- nice to be here! + - [[noah]] happy the group seems to be "revived" + - [[akshay]] like a Saturday for me due to 80% time :) + - [[neil]] +1 here, but not off today + - been doing it for a year + - [[[noah]]] freelance, working four days a week + - Fridays are [[disco coop]] / passion projects + - Let's meet in [[immers space]] ;) + - [[nick]] here :) + - let's seed a potential agenda? + - [[noah]] what was discussed at the last meeting? + - https://anagora.org/social-coop-tech-group -> https://www.loomio.org/d/UwAeiBgE/tech-meeting-minutes + - [[nick]] handing over the keys, how to be able to disengage before the next meeting + - if we have root in social.coop, what else do we need to get full access to all resources? + - [[nick]] there's also the password repository, which is based on gpg keys + - [[noah]] adding people to the pass repo is maybe the one thing where we surely need nick the most + - [[nick]] can add Eduardo to the pass repo + - it requires re-encrypting with all keys + - need to find the notes on how to do this + - [[akshay]] is it worth storing in the repo itself how to do this? + - +1 + - we are pretty confident all credentials are in the pass repo, at least in the past 2-3y everything has been there + - there is a lingering domain registration issue + - we need to look up the name of the person responsible + - [[nick]] enric duran (sp?) + - there was discussion of transferring + - -> let's find the loomio thread, there was a proposal for where to transfer to https://www.loomio.org/d/Jf5Wi4Ph/domain-expired-social-coop-down + - [[noah]] it would ideally be transferred to a collective entity? + - probably want to discuss with other working groups + - [[akshay]] do we keep track of what we have credentials for? + - [[noah]] no separate source except for the pass repo + - in short: + - admin account in the instance + - hetzner + - digital ocean for static storage + - login for email aliases which is required for git access + - we could agree on a time slot and then do some coworking on the pass repo + - next week 2h earlier? 4pm London + - [[nick]] make sure you have an email alias asap so you can access the git repo so you can do, well, other stuff :) + - noah, nick, david have access + - welcome GiacomoSansoni! + - newbie here! + - don't know much about tech (yet) + - willing to learn + - [flancian] focus areas / learning exercises + - mastodon instance (currently on docker) + - who does moderation? + - there is a moderation group, [[community working group]] does it + - [[neil]] is there anything that the tech working group does with registrations? + - [[noah]] the wiki runs alongside the mastodon deployment and supports the process + - [flancian] why do we do it this way instead of letting people join (with approval) and then following up? + - [[noah]] there's the requirement of joining the open collective first, but there is potential for streamlining as long as we have energy in driving :) + - [flancian] interested, would like to try to bring this up as a possible improvement -- in particular if we want to make it easier to onboard/grow more + - [[neil]] there was discussion about improving the process in the strategy session + - [[nick]] there's only one field in registration and that was considered a blocker + - [[akshay]] it seems like mastodon in general could benefit from this + - +1 + - backups and restores + - secondary server? + - [[nick]] there was some effort previously some time ago (https://git.coop/social.coop/tech/ansible/-/merge_requests/12 - although it's more about an instance for testing upgrades, but same principle for restores) + - one of the complications was to try to bring up a new instance which isn't federating, which could mess up the fediverse + - there's a merge request in git + - nicks didn't reach agreement + - wu lee (sp?) + - new services + - has this been brought up? + - [[noah]] one of the old meeting minutes has ideas on this front: https://www.loomio.org/d/UwAeiBgE/tech-meeting-minutes/35 + - the obstacle is procedural + organizational: something that enough people want, are willing to have some workload for them + - [[akshay]] instance customization + - is there interest? + - [[noah]] some people are definitely interested + - [[noah]] putting together a survey in general would be useful for both gauging this and interest in new services + - [[akshay]] themes would also be nice + - [[nick]] there was -some- customization previously but it might have been ripped out to lower maintenance cost + - [[neil]] in the strategy sessions people mentioned [[hometown]], main feature that was desired seemed to be local only timeline + - [[noah]] there is some risk associated with the switch, but it shouldn't be a very involved process. [[hometown]] keeps up with mastodon pretty regularly. + - [[darius]] is active in the fediverse and could maybe help out + - [[nick]] deployed a hometown instance rencetly, used [[coop cloud]] for it. setting up a parallel second setup might be a good idea. https://coopcloud.tech/ + - [flancian] is there consensus on whether the community wants that? + - [[neil]] no consensus, just has been brought up a few times + - [[nick]] as a user, likes the concept but it adds a bit more complexity to the already relatively complex mastodon post visibility options. third party apps don't support it. it works maybe better for technology-engaged communities. + - [[noah]] has an alt on dads.cool and it's pretty nice, but it makes sense in the context of that server + - [will/datatitian] it's good for complaining among other coopers :) + - (breaking here until next time) + - [flancian] maintenance pending + - [flancian] engagement with other working groups + - -> could be related/linked to a solution to gender imbalance/diversity + - [[neil]] steps for onboarding new tech WG members + - might be linked to focus areas + - [flancian] documentation sources of truth, do we have too many? do we share enough with other working groups? + - checkout round + - [[GiacomoSansoni]]: on customization, could be just put things to a vote on loomio one by one? + - +1, this sounds like a good idea + - send a notification to everybody on the instance requesting a proposal? + - [[noah]] signing off, nice to see you! + - [[nick]] glad I joined, climbed out of bed, now need to eat dinner :) + - enjoyed it more than I thought! + - [flancian] +1 + - [[neil]] nice to put faces to handles :) + - +1 + - nice to get a start on how the meeting is run, looking forward to next Friday! + - [[akshay]] was looking forward to the meeting and enjoyed it, see you next Friday :) + - this being the second meeting it feels like the start of something +- [[2022-04-08]] + - Hi all :) + - Let's try to keep communal notes here? + - [[nick]] == [[nick sellen]] got involved in social.coop during a crisis long ago + - saved it from going offline, stabilized for a bit + - then david and noah came onboard + - not very active in the instance as of late + - periodic emergencies + - certificate renewal + - trying to empower others to join in, but don't have capacity for being really active again for now + - in the UK (Bath) + - side note: [[gender imbalance]] here pretty obvious + - (what do we do about this?) + - [[akshay]] been on social.coop for ~1y + - mostly lurking :) + - saw the certificate thing happen, thought maybe I can help + - ops + software development experience + - based in [[Berlin]], originally from [[India]] + - [[idmyn]] == David + - being in the instance for ~4y + - joined around the same time the nicks rescued the instance + - based in UK + - doing some tech bits with [[Noah]] for a while, then dropped off -- mostly here to offer any knowledge that is singly homed in brain :) + - focus areas: + - [[wiki]] + - [[meet.coop]] registration form in the wiki + - [[flancian]] == [[Eduardo]] + - living in [[switzerland]] + - joined a couple of years ago, but not that involved until recently + - when recent cert issue happened felt rusty but perhaps they could help out + - SRE recently, linux experience + - not sure if recent experience is relevant but willing to learn! + - [[edsu]] == ed summers + - been around for ~4y + - use the instance quite a bit, notice when it goes down -- thank you nick for bringing it back every time! + - is invested so would love to know more, learn + - software developer background, mostly web. working mainly with libraries (in the organization sense) which have digital repositories and a web presence. + - love the idea of pitching in to help and this group being a coop. + - [[datatitian]] == Will + - joined in 2017 + - got involved with the tech group back then but didn't have a lot of specific experience; now would be interested in trying again + - working on immers.space which is activitypub based + - [[nick sellen]] love how the recent disruption has served to get people together, shows how as long as we have fundamental organization we can channel energy in the right direction :) + - [[nick sellen]] server access + - there's a thread on loomio to decide who gets server access, we can use that + - https://www.loomio.org/d/jrbG5tue/server-access + - we'd vote people in for access and then people can request assistance/more information as needed + - [[nick sellen]] + - love the coworking/colearning model + - really enjoyed learning about the background of others just now + - [[flancian]] is there a 'root node' for tech docs/etc.? + - [[nick sellen]] https://git.coop/social.coop/tech/operations + - assumes social.coop email addresses, but this can be worked around with aliases (check) + - we use [[pass]] + - [[flancian]] I see we have one server -- do we have a backup server? do we have backup+restore processes? + - [[david]] we have database backups but unclear when they have been tested + - [[flancian]] what about using this as an exercise in which the "new wave" of admins is tasked with setting up a new server off backups and such? + - [[akshay]] what's this [[sauce]] repo mentioned? + - [[nick sellen]] the other nick named it after 'special sauce' + - in principle it could be all consolidated into ansible + - [[docker compose]] setup + - the update process involves touching the sauce repo which then somehow results in updates configs making it to prod + - [[akshay]] love automation, been doing this for the past few years for employers + - [[datatitian]] thinking of oncall schedules for the group -- need not be too granular + - [[flancian]] +1, plus having a secondary/backup would make for a simplified learning experience + - [[edsu]] would love to join a rotation + - [[edsu]] the instance feels pretty stable though, it's a challenge when problems only come about too sporadically + - [[edsu]] perhaps other working groups within the coop might be interested in other tools we could provide for them? + - [[datatitian]] there's been a long term interest in bridging loomio and mastodon + - [[edsu]] issue tracker for FRs? + - [[flancian]] [[git.coop]]? + - [[akshay]] if access to git.coop is limited, that would be a bit exclusive + - [[edsu]] loomio might also be a good platform for this + - [[nick sellen]] love the idea about building bridges -- and the oncall sharing + - [[edsu]] how did you notice the recent instance problem? + - [[nick sellen]] I do use it often enough :) also keep up to date with matrix. + - (wrap up round) + - [[nick sellen]] happy with this meet, would like to support everyone any way I can + - next steps: next call next week + - happy to receive more questions over matrix/mastodon/loomio + - [[akshay]] already have a git.coop account, would like access to ansible/sauce if possible to see how this works :) + - [[david]] happy to see new and familiar faces! + - won't be able to make the other call but will stay reachable and happy to answer questions and assist + - [[flancian]] thank you for social.coop! happy to meet you all + - will read docs, think about where to focus + - please feel free to pull me in if you need work on any particular direction + - [[edsu]] happy to meet all, would love to learn more about side projects that people have here + - would like to learn more about mastodon + - do have a git.coop account already, will take a look -- have used ansible before + - will tune in next week + - [[datatitian]] will start coordinating on loomio focusing on the oncall schedule + - [[flancian]] framadate: https://framadate.org/social-coop-tech-group + - (this is also on https://anagora.org/social-coop-tech-group, where I keep my notes) + - [[akshay]] how to join in loomio? + - (people apply) + - diff --git a/logseq/bak/social coop tech group.md.2022-05-27T22_44_32.241Z b/logseq/bak/social coop tech group.md.2022-05-27T22_44_32.241Z new file mode 100644 index 000000000..6a48ec150 --- /dev/null +++ b/logseq/bak/social coop tech group.md.2022-05-27T22_44_32.241Z @@ -0,0 +1,227 @@ +- a [[group]]. + - #pull [[social coop]] + - [[framadate]] https://framadate.org/social-coop-tech-group + - now replaced by built-in [[loomio]] feature + - [[meet]] https://socialcoop.meet.coop/dav-y3e-c21-sgv + - [[minutes]] https://www.loomio.org/d/UwAeiBgE/tech-meeting-minutes + - see also the [[stoa]] below :) + - [[thread]] https://social.coop/web/statuses/108090642475540439 + - #push [[do]] + - DONE help [[derek kozel]] (open chatroom) try to recover his account + - https://discourse.joinmastodon.org/t/is-it-possible-to-restore-a-deleted-user-account/1945 + - ran: `mastodon@564f268b311f:~$ tootctl accounts create dkozel --reattach --force --email=derek@bitstovolts.com` + - to get to a shell in the right container, ran: `docker exec -it docker_web_1 /bin/bash` in [[runko]] + - [x] meet on [[2022-05-20]] 3pm utc + - [x] meet on [[2022-05-27]] 5pm utc + - DONE start proposal to move registrations to [[mastodon]] by moving to [[approval required]], wiki process seems unnecessarily involved at this stage +- [[2022-05-27]] see [[stoa]]. +- [[2022-05-20]] see minutes thread above. +- [[2022-05-13]] + - Attending: + - [[akshay]] + - [[neil]] + - [[noah]] == [[redoak]] + - [[eduardo]] == [[flancian]] + - [[nick]] == [[nick sellen]] + - [[will]] == [[datatitian]] + - round the table catching up :) + - [[neil]] first time in one of the tech group meetings! + - post work on a Friday -- nice to be here! + - [[noah]] happy the group seems to be "revived" + - [[akshay]] like a Saturday for me due to 80% time :) + - [[neil]] +1 here, but not off today + - been doing it for a year + - [[[noah]]] freelance, working four days a week + - Fridays are [[disco coop]] / passion projects + - Let's meet in [[immers space]] ;) + - [[nick]] here :) + - let's seed a potential agenda? + - [[noah]] what was discussed at the last meeting? + - https://anagora.org/social-coop-tech-group -> https://www.loomio.org/d/UwAeiBgE/tech-meeting-minutes + - [[nick]] handing over the keys, how to be able to disengage before the next meeting + - if we have root in social.coop, what else do we need to get full access to all resources? + - [[nick]] there's also the password repository, which is based on gpg keys + - [[noah]] adding people to the pass repo is maybe the one thing where we surely need nick the most + - [[nick]] can add Eduardo to the pass repo + - it requires re-encrypting with all keys + - need to find the notes on how to do this + - [[akshay]] is it worth storing in the repo itself how to do this? + - +1 + - we are pretty confident all credentials are in the pass repo, at least in the past 2-3y everything has been there + - there is a lingering domain registration issue + - we need to look up the name of the person responsible + - [[nick]] enric duran (sp?) + - there was discussion of transferring + - -> let's find the loomio thread, there was a proposal for where to transfer to https://www.loomio.org/d/Jf5Wi4Ph/domain-expired-social-coop-down + - [[noah]] it would ideally be transferred to a collective entity? + - probably want to discuss with other working groups + - [[akshay]] do we keep track of what we have credentials for? + - [[noah]] no separate source except for the pass repo + - in short: + - admin account in the instance + - hetzner + - digital ocean for static storage + - login for email aliases which is required for git access + - we could agree on a time slot and then do some coworking on the pass repo + - next week 2h earlier? 4pm London + - [[nick]] make sure you have an email alias asap so you can access the git repo so you can do, well, other stuff :) + - noah, nick, david have access + - welcome GiacomoSansoni! + - newbie here! + - don't know much about tech (yet) + - willing to learn + - [flancian] focus areas / learning exercises + - mastodon instance (currently on docker) + - who does moderation? + - there is a moderation group, [[community working group]] does it + - [[neil]] is there anything that the tech working group does with registrations? + - [[noah]] the wiki runs alongside the mastodon deployment and supports the process + - [flancian] why do we do it this way instead of letting people join (with approval) and then following up? + - [[noah]] there's the requirement of joining the open collective first, but there is potential for streamlining as long as we have energy in driving :) + - [flancian] interested, would like to try to bring this up as a possible improvement -- in particular if we want to make it easier to onboard/grow more + - [[neil]] there was discussion about improving the process in the strategy session + - [[nick]] there's only one field in registration and that was considered a blocker + - [[akshay]] it seems like mastodon in general could benefit from this + - +1 + - backups and restores + - secondary server? + - [[nick]] there was some effort previously some time ago (https://git.coop/social.coop/tech/ansible/-/merge_requests/12 - although it's more about an instance for testing upgrades, but same principle for restores) + - one of the complications was to try to bring up a new instance which isn't federating, which could mess up the fediverse + - there's a merge request in git + - nicks didn't reach agreement + - wu lee (sp?) + - new services + - has this been brought up? + - [[noah]] one of the old meeting minutes has ideas on this front: https://www.loomio.org/d/UwAeiBgE/tech-meeting-minutes/35 + - the obstacle is procedural + organizational: something that enough people want, are willing to have some workload for them + - [[akshay]] instance customization + - is there interest? + - [[noah]] some people are definitely interested + - [[noah]] putting together a survey in general would be useful for both gauging this and interest in new services + - [[akshay]] themes would also be nice + - [[nick]] there was -some- customization previously but it might have been ripped out to lower maintenance cost + - [[neil]] in the strategy sessions people mentioned [[hometown]], main feature that was desired seemed to be local only timeline + - [[noah]] there is some risk associated with the switch, but it shouldn't be a very involved process. [[hometown]] keeps up with mastodon pretty regularly. + - [[darius]] is active in the fediverse and could maybe help out + - [[nick]] deployed a hometown instance rencetly, used [[coop cloud]] for it. setting up a parallel second setup might be a good idea. https://coopcloud.tech/ + - [flancian] is there consensus on whether the community wants that? + - [[neil]] no consensus, just has been brought up a few times + - [[nick]] as a user, likes the concept but it adds a bit more complexity to the already relatively complex mastodon post visibility options. third party apps don't support it. it works maybe better for technology-engaged communities. + - [[noah]] has an alt on dads.cool and it's pretty nice, but it makes sense in the context of that server + - [will/datatitian] it's good for complaining among other coopers :) + - (breaking here until next time) + - [flancian] maintenance pending + - [flancian] engagement with other working groups + - -> could be related/linked to a solution to gender imbalance/diversity + - [[neil]] steps for onboarding new tech WG members + - might be linked to focus areas + - [flancian] documentation sources of truth, do we have too many? do we share enough with other working groups? + - checkout round + - [[GiacomoSansoni]]: on customization, could be just put things to a vote on loomio one by one? + - +1, this sounds like a good idea + - send a notification to everybody on the instance requesting a proposal? + - [[noah]] signing off, nice to see you! + - [[nick]] glad I joined, climbed out of bed, now need to eat dinner :) + - enjoyed it more than I thought! + - [flancian] +1 + - [[neil]] nice to put faces to handles :) + - +1 + - nice to get a start on how the meeting is run, looking forward to next Friday! + - [[akshay]] was looking forward to the meeting and enjoyed it, see you next Friday :) + - this being the second meeting it feels like the start of something +- [[2022-04-08]] + - Hi all :) + - Let's try to keep communal notes here? + - [[nick]] == [[nick sellen]] got involved in social.coop during a crisis long ago + - saved it from going offline, stabilized for a bit + - then david and noah came onboard + - not very active in the instance as of late + - periodic emergencies + - certificate renewal + - trying to empower others to join in, but don't have capacity for being really active again for now + - in the UK (Bath) + - side note: [[gender imbalance]] here pretty obvious + - (what do we do about this?) + - [[akshay]] been on social.coop for ~1y + - mostly lurking :) + - saw the certificate thing happen, thought maybe I can help + - ops + software development experience + - based in [[Berlin]], originally from [[India]] + - [[idmyn]] == David + - being in the instance for ~4y + - joined around the same time the nicks rescued the instance + - based in UK + - doing some tech bits with [[Noah]] for a while, then dropped off -- mostly here to offer any knowledge that is singly homed in brain :) + - focus areas: + - [[wiki]] + - [[meet.coop]] registration form in the wiki + - [[flancian]] == [[Eduardo]] + - living in [[switzerland]] + - joined a couple of years ago, but not that involved until recently + - when recent cert issue happened felt rusty but perhaps they could help out + - SRE recently, linux experience + - not sure if recent experience is relevant but willing to learn! + - [[edsu]] == ed summers + - been around for ~4y + - use the instance quite a bit, notice when it goes down -- thank you nick for bringing it back every time! + - is invested so would love to know more, learn + - software developer background, mostly web. working mainly with libraries (in the organization sense) which have digital repositories and a web presence. + - love the idea of pitching in to help and this group being a coop. + - [[datatitian]] == Will + - joined in 2017 + - got involved with the tech group back then but didn't have a lot of specific experience; now would be interested in trying again + - working on immers.space which is activitypub based + - [[nick sellen]] love how the recent disruption has served to get people together, shows how as long as we have fundamental organization we can channel energy in the right direction :) + - [[nick sellen]] server access + - there's a thread on loomio to decide who gets server access, we can use that + - https://www.loomio.org/d/jrbG5tue/server-access + - we'd vote people in for access and then people can request assistance/more information as needed + - [[nick sellen]] + - love the coworking/colearning model + - really enjoyed learning about the background of others just now + - [[flancian]] is there a 'root node' for tech docs/etc.? + - [[nick sellen]] https://git.coop/social.coop/tech/operations + - assumes social.coop email addresses, but this can be worked around with aliases (check) + - we use [[pass]] + - [[flancian]] I see we have one server -- do we have a backup server? do we have backup+restore processes? + - [[david]] we have database backups but unclear when they have been tested + - [[flancian]] what about using this as an exercise in which the "new wave" of admins is tasked with setting up a new server off backups and such? + - [[akshay]] what's this [[sauce]] repo mentioned? + - [[nick sellen]] the other nick named it after 'special sauce' + - in principle it could be all consolidated into ansible + - [[docker compose]] setup + - the update process involves touching the sauce repo which then somehow results in updates configs making it to prod + - [[akshay]] love automation, been doing this for the past few years for employers + - [[datatitian]] thinking of oncall schedules for the group -- need not be too granular + - [[flancian]] +1, plus having a secondary/backup would make for a simplified learning experience + - [[edsu]] would love to join a rotation + - [[edsu]] the instance feels pretty stable though, it's a challenge when problems only come about too sporadically + - [[edsu]] perhaps other working groups within the coop might be interested in other tools we could provide for them? + - [[datatitian]] there's been a long term interest in bridging loomio and mastodon + - [[edsu]] issue tracker for FRs? + - [[flancian]] [[git.coop]]? + - [[akshay]] if access to git.coop is limited, that would be a bit exclusive + - [[edsu]] loomio might also be a good platform for this + - [[nick sellen]] love the idea about building bridges -- and the oncall sharing + - [[edsu]] how did you notice the recent instance problem? + - [[nick sellen]] I do use it often enough :) also keep up to date with matrix. + - (wrap up round) + - [[nick sellen]] happy with this meet, would like to support everyone any way I can + - next steps: next call next week + - happy to receive more questions over matrix/mastodon/loomio + - [[akshay]] already have a git.coop account, would like access to ansible/sauce if possible to see how this works :) + - [[david]] happy to see new and familiar faces! + - won't be able to make the other call but will stay reachable and happy to answer questions and assist + - [[flancian]] thank you for social.coop! happy to meet you all + - will read docs, think about where to focus + - please feel free to pull me in if you need work on any particular direction + - [[edsu]] happy to meet all, would love to learn more about side projects that people have here + - would like to learn more about mastodon + - do have a git.coop account already, will take a look -- have used ansible before + - will tune in next week + - [[datatitian]] will start coordinating on loomio focusing on the oncall schedule + - [[flancian]] framadate: https://framadate.org/social-coop-tech-group + - (this is also on https://anagora.org/social-coop-tech-group, where I keep my notes) + - [[akshay]] how to join in loomio? + - (people apply) + -